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all in the day of a PCSO ...
"In my view we need more powers, Not less."
introduction: CIDB a member of national-PCSOs from day 1, he has seen every topic that has gone on and is a VETERAN MEMBER and PCSO
national-PCSOs interview CIDB: hello mate!
falkor: thanks for phoning
CIDB: hello, how you doing?
falkor: we do know each other actually
CIDB: yes we do
falkor: because we were on the flippin crazy bus in Kew Gardens together
CIDB: that’s right
falkor: and we had some photographs of the whole sorry saga. Somebody took a close up of both of us
CIDB: [laughing]
falkor: [laughing] we’ve both got our mugs on that PBase
CIDB: yes mate we have!
falkor: Do you remember that total mayhem on that bus?
CIDB: I do, but it just seems so long ago now
falkor: It’s terrible isn’t it
CIDB: I know
falkor: But that John Burnell was to blame for most of it
CIDB: that’s right he was
falkor: he was a laugh though, it’s a shame that he’s moved on elsewhere
CIDB: yeah same for a lot of people isn’t it?
falkor: but I do remember that day it was absolutely classic
CIDB: yeah it was great, it was great
falkor: we had some good tours round the glasshouses and up that stairway to the top balcony and all that didn’t we?
CIDB: Yeah but then I headed off quite early on, to go and see my little ‘un, no I was there it was a good day
falkor: oh you missed out on the pub?
CIDB: no I didn’t make it to the pub no
falkor: oh that was another saga that was – markluker was there – he was in charge of that part of the debacle
CIDB: oh right
falkor: yeah I think it weaned down to about ¾ of us ended up at the pub, but I didn’t stay right until the end. I do remember that Jimbo ended up on one of the letterboxes right on top of it
CIDB: [laughing]
falkor: But there was the most enormous amount of photos came out of that I just couldn’t believe it, they just poured like a waterfall half of them never made it to the website
CIDB: thank goodness
falkor: well thanks for phoning I suppose I’d better start on the interview “proper”
falkor: What do you think of £80 PNDs for example “urinating in the street” ? You have issued some of these, haven’t you Dave?
CIDB: Yes I’ve issued quite a few yes
falkor: Any interesting ones?
CIDB: mainly for urinating in a public place and repeatedly swearing
falkor: but if you’ve got people swearing, that can be quite dodgy can’t it? Confrontation wise?
CIDB: Confrontation wise yes, but I find that a combination of tactical communications and £80 FPN usually does the trick in that respect
falkor: but you’re doubled up a lot of the time aren’t you?
CIDB: Yes I work the town centre and tend to work with my buddy stu
falkor: Is there any times when you go out on your own?
CIDB: Well stu as I put on the site has unfortunately been quite poorly recently and so I’ve been out on my own for the last few weeks
falkor: I was trying to get him out of his sick bed to interview him! Poor fella or he would have been another victim for falkor’s interviews!
CIDB: I was around when he was ill and I thought he was having a heart attack
falkor: gould it carries on from that?
CIDB: yeah yeah
falkor: oh I’m sorry to hear that, I certainly wish him a speedy recover for sure
CIDB: I know mate it’s one of those things, one minute he’s alright the next minute he’s poorly and then finding all sorts of things wrong with him
falkor: I must say that when I was in the Police about 10 years ago I did have a patch that I went through when I was being forever flippin ill, all the time I was off with Bronchitus, flu, tonsilitus but for the last 5 years I don’t know why but I seem to be alright now
CIDB: Well it seems to go that way doesn’t it, y’know he’s built like a Rhino he’s a solid old bloke – y’know we’re walking down the street – 1 minute he’s standing there saying he can’t breath and how hot he is and the next minute he’s dropped on the ground
falkor: well I’m sure all the members from national-PCSOs will join me in wishing him a quick recovery and the end of the horrible saga
CIDB: yeah he’ll be back posting now but I think it’ll be another 2 weeks before he’s back on duty
falkor: ah all the best to him
falkor: anyway you are a trained ANPR operator
CIDB: yes
falkor: How many PCSOs are trained ANPR operators?
CIDB: On my division there are 3
falkor: right so how do you get to do that job then Dave?
CIDB: basically the ASR system is set up in the town centre
falkor: yeah
CIDB: and it was decided that the only people who would be using that system the most would be PCSOs. I was one of the first 10 PCSOs ever with Essex Police. I’ve been part of the pilot programme and I’m probably the one with the most experience at my police station and I was nominated
falkor: so the ANPR patches into the static CCTV system in the town centre?
CIDB: yes
falkor: because the ANPR that I know, they go out with a lorry or Police Van and it’s like a mobile thing, this is a static one is it?
CIDB: the technology has been miniaturised and has actually been attached to CCTV cameras which are already in place in and around the town centre, so when they operate and point a CCTV camera at a vehicle, the camera will automatically read the number plate, but the security staff only have limited access to the database of information, whereas I’m a trained ANPR operator and so I have full access
falkor: but when will you be posted to do those duties Dave?
CIDB: at the discretion of my Sgt really. We have a weekly time, say ok it will be Wednesday when you do ANPR, the town policing unit will go out and we’ll do ANPR
falkor: Yeah but what do you physically do then Dave?
CIDB: Me personally? Ok I go up to the CCTV control room and take control of the ANPR system. I log in to the National Intelligence database. The cameras are then put into position by myself and then anytime we get a hit, I do a PNC check on the vehicle, indicate what the vehicle is to the roadblock and the people pull the car over
falkor: So is that a good thing? Do you enjoy doing that Dave?
CIDB: I do but I’m very proactive. I’d rather be on the roadblock than behind the terminal [laughing]
falkor: But if there’s only 3 PCSOs at your station that can do it ….. that isn’t many is it?
CIDB: no it’s not, but I’m quite happy and quite chuffed to be picked
falkor: but why is there so few?
CIDB: I think basically what they’re worried about doing, is with the turn over, people changing areas stuff like that, they don’t want to train people to use the kit who are just going to move on
falkor: oh I see
CIDB: they’ll just keep it to the Town Policing Unit
falkor: Have you had any results off it?
CIDB: Yes yes we’ve had one stolen vehicle and we’ve seized, I think it is eleven vehicles for no insurance – I think we had to have a traffic officer to do that though. I can’t remember which section it was under, but they came down and seized the vehicle for no insurance
falkor: oh that’s a new one, that’s not s59 is it?
CIDB: no it’s not section 59
falkor: it’s the next one after that isn’t it?
CIDB: and then …..
falkor: I like that
CIDB: and we’ve reported people for driving not in accordance with their driving licence conditions
falkor: yeah that’s the same as they use for no insurance. But that section where you can take the car off the road for no documents is absolutely brilliant
CIDB: very much so
falkor: that is so good
falkor: oh you’ve had a few successes that way have you?
CIDB: When we first got it, you know what it’s like, all the bosses come down they expect the results and we were getting a figure a day when we were doing it
falkor: oh brilliant you can’t argue with that can you?
CIDB: no
falkor: I’m a great fan of that
falkor: now you’ve got an XBOX 360 haven’t you?
CIDB: I have! My pride and joy
falkor: it’s your pride and joy is it?
CIDB: it is
falkor: What games have you got?
CIDB: At the moment I’m playing Ghost recon2, that’s just come out and I’m playing XBOX live as well
falkor: How does the ‘XBOX live’ thing work?
CIDB: Basically anybody who’s got an XBOX can log onto ‘XBOX live’ with any game that they’ve got and play people from all over the world in multiplayer rooms
falkor: What about stu?
CIDB: He’s not got one no [laughing]
falkor: What excuse does he say for that then?
CIDB: I don’t think his missus will let him have one to be honest
falkor: Because I would have thought that by now Dave, you would have persuaded him
CIDB: I’ve tried. I have tried but his missus has got a bit more sway than me I think
falkor: What other games have you got for it then?
CIDB: ‘provolution soccer,’ a game called ‘gun’ that I’m currently playing, ‘saints roads’ that I also enjoy
falkor: how long have you had it for?
CIDB: about a year and a half
falkor: because the playstion3’s come out now Dave!
CIDB: that’s right
falkor: you’re just ignoring that?
CIDB: yes I am
falkor: You’re not interested
CIDB: I’m very loyal, I’m staying loyal to my XBOX
falkor: well most people do that but now and again there’s somebody who says, “right I’m going to have the XBOX 360, I’m going to have a PS3, I’m going to have the wii” but I agree with you – I think if you’ve got one particular computer, there’s no need to start going on to other ones, it’s just confusing
CIDB: that’s right, definitely. I like the XBOX and like playing ‘XBOX live’ I like the controllers and the set up and everything, so I stick to what I like
falkor: is it reliable?
CIDB: it’s never let me down once, touchwood
falkor: is there anybody else in the family that plays on it or is it just you?
CIDB: no just me
falkor: sounds like you’ve got everything organised
CIDB: everything
falkor: Have you had any shoplifters lately?
CIDB: Yes one yesterday
falkor: crikey you can’t beat that can you?
CIDB: no you can’t
falkor: because I seem to remember you saying that you’d had quite a few shoplifters
CIDB: Being on the Town Centre Policing Unit and being out on the street all the time and having access to the Town Link Radio, I tend to get to any incidents before any police officers – so it’s normally me that gets there first and with stu being off as well, it’s definitely me getting there first
falkor: so what do they expect you to do Dave?
CIDB: well when I first started, they didn’t want us to go anywhere near them, but the system that happens now on my part, basically when I get there when I’ve worked out what’s gone on from what the security guard has told me, I get a value of the offence and whether or not they’re a juvenile, whether they’re playing up or not. I complete a wanted check, a PNC check and anything else that needs to be done and do a stop check form on them while I’m waiting for a police officer to arrive
falkor: Well I like that because if you’ve filled out a stop check form on them, when the Police Officer arrives if he wants to know their details, he doesn’t need to ask them you just hand the form over, it’s all done
CIDB: Also I can explain that we’ve got the act of concealment or no attempt was made to pay, local warrants checked and if they have come back negative and that I’ve been able to confirm details and matches address on PNC and here are his details on a hard copy as well
falkor: so after you’ve done all that, do the Police expect you to do a statement on it or what?
CIDB: Oh definitely. What I’ll do then is, help convey back to custody and while the police officer is booking in the suspect, I’ll the do the crime complaint for the job. I’ll then attend the store, collect the CCTV in relation to the incident, book that in to the “evidence seized” and create a continuity statement in relation to collecting the CCTV and as regards to my actions before the Police Officer arrived
falkor: and what about other PCSOs, are they expected to do the same as what you just described?
CIDB: The ones that I trained do and the ones on the Town Centre do, but the ones that police the beats don’t tend to get that much specialised knowledge – they don’t have to deal with the amount of shoplifters or criminal damages things like that we do on the town – so they don’t turn in that amount of paperwork I don’t think
falkor: so when you’re walking down the road on your town centre patrol, is it a case of you know the faces, you know the people who are up to no good? You just know ‘em by now?
CIDB: Very much so. I’ve been on it 4 years so my face is really well known. I used to be a doorman before I joined Essex Police, so I was very keen to get to know everybody. I wasn’t shy of putting myself about, so everybody got to know me and now I’ve got a good rapport with the locals
falkor: So you’ve been a PCSO for four years – is it a case that as each year comes up, you get an increment – are you on maximum pay now?
CIDB: We go up a scale point every year I believe. I’m not on the top band yet, but after a satisfactory report from our supervisor, we can also get pushed up an increment even more, if they think that we’re acting above and beyond our payscale
falkor: so you’re not on the maximum yet and you’ve done 4 years
CIDB: no not yet, not yet
falkor: when do you get on maximum then Dave?
CIDB: I think it’s on 5 years
falkor: oh is it?
CIDB: yes and then my annual leave goes up as well after 5 years
falkor: sounds good to me Dave
CIDB: I know, 1 more year to go
falkor: Back in January, you were saying that you were going to the gym 4 times a week
CIDB: that’s right
falkor: you still doing that?
CIDB: yes
falkor: how do you do it? 4 times a week is a lot!
CIDB: well it is but I’ve dropped 5 stone now
falkor: my god
CIDB: and I’ve lost 6½” off my tummy
falkor: wow
CIDB: so that’s what’s keeping me going
falkor: but that must be costing you a few quid
CIDB: £40 a month with police discount
falkor: with police discount?
CIDB: yes
falkor: £40 a month, is it worth it?
CIDB: very much so. I’m feeling so much better
falkor: are you?
CIDB: I am
falkor: What do you mean feeling so much better? In what way?
CIDB: when I was heavy my back used to hurt
falkor: oh no
CIDB: if I did chase after a suspect I’d be absolutely knackered and sometimes I couldn’t catch them
falkor: well done Dave, congratulations!
CIDB: thank you, it’s still hard but I’m getting there
falkor: What sort of stuff do you do at the gym?
CIDB: I find my weak spot is cardio vascular. I used to box quite a lot when I was a kid, so I’ve got quite a bit of upper body strength but cardio vascular even when I was boxing, was never my strong point and now I make a point of going on the tread mill, put the music on loud and just go for it
falkor: you are doing so well Dave, you’re doing better than me that’s for sure
CIDB: [laughing] well it just had to be done – I had a good 6 years of eating what I wanted and doing what I wanted – pay back time in the gym now
falkor: that was January that you started all that I think
CIDB: yes
falkor: if we go back one month before that, you got a new computer didn’t you?
CIDB: I did
falkor: Why did you change computer then?
CIDB: because my old one blew up
falkor: it blew up?
CIDB: Oh yes it crashed and needed a new hard drive and the computer was so old it was still running Windows98 - I took it for repair and they could do it for me, but the guy said have you ever thought about getting a new one? So I thought well I’m earning decent money now so “what’s the best one that you can do me?”
falkor: Do you play any games on it at all?
CIDB: I was playing medieval total war, I completed that – I used to be a huge command and conquer fan
falkor: Oh I love that :Retaliation > Skirmish
CIDB: [laughing]
falkor: have you done the skirmish on Retaliation?
CIDB: not yet, no but I’ve played all of them before, when they first came out I used to play them all, very very good. Generals I played a lot
falkor: I love the music on them as well, the music is unbelievable
CIDB: fantastic games
CIDB: I’ve also played Championship Management Football as well
falkor: But let’s be fair about it Dave, if you’re going to play a computer game, it’s much better on a console surely
CIDB: strategy wise I’d say PC personally and first person shooter or football games: console
falkor: the thing about the console I like is, you just plug ‘em into the TV. You can sit back on the settee really relax – y’know most of the times with a PC you don’t generally tend to do that
CIDB: no
falkor: [silence]
falkor: I was going to talk to you about your avatar actually
CIDB: ah well I joined the site, I saw that nobody else had it and I kind of made it my own [laughing]
falkor: well that was back in the very early days of the site and believe it or not – I don’t know if you’re aware – but when our site first launched, I actually got written permission from a guy at Christian Coders Network, who had actually penned these avatars such as yours which is ‘flareicon,’ plus another 20 or so which actually formed our original avatars on the site – a guy by the name of ‘Angel’ is his username oh y’know Jimbo’s cross? That was another one he did
CIDB: blimey
CIDB: You know Dizzy’s that was another one he did, so that really gives away the fact that you were one of the original members on the site Dave
CIDB: Yeah magic, I thought oh I’ll have that and I kind of made it my own like I said, I put my name under it
falkor: Nobody else has had that one have they?
CIDB: No one else took it no
falkor: [laughing] What are your views on the union then – are you in UNISON then Dave?
CIDB: I am and I’ve been quite outspoken about it on the site. I see it as a necessary evil unfortunately
falkor: really?
I don’t think that they listen to their members, I don’t think that they understand the role and they’re not pushing for what most people want, in my view
falkor: well what most people want, is a power of arrest with force surely?
CIDB: very much so and an urgent review of the safety equipment that we carry as well
falkor: because your force has got a power to detain, but without using force
CIDB: that’s right
falkor: how does that work?
CIDB: it doesn’t. I’m quite well known at the training school as one of the PCSOs for trying everything first. As soon as we get a new power, I’ll go out and deliberately try and use it and I’m not going to embarrass myself by attempting to verbally detain someone
falkor: I’ve never understood this thing about a power to detain but without using force – how is it supposed to work?
CIDB: I don’t know. I’m supposed to say “I’m detaining you now but you’re free to leave”
falkor: it’s nonsense isn’t it?
CIDB: absolutely. In terms of practical policing, it’s not going to happen because the first thing they’re going to say is “See you later mate”
falkor: Have you got any local UNISON reps at all Dave?
CIDB: Yes we’ve got the divisional secretary at our police station
falkor: What do they say about that issue of the power to detain but without force? CIDB: You get the standard “well we’re non confrontational so there you go”
falkor: ah that’s what they say is it?
CIDB: yeah that’s the standard answer to that and it’s good for anytime that somebody raises a good point that they can’t answer
falkor: Going back to your days as a doorman, did any of the doormen that you knew have handcuffs at all?
CIDB: oh yes crikey they did yes
falkor: They did?
CIDB: oh yes
falkor: I’ve never seen a doorman with handcuffs ….. they just conceal them?
CIDB: What they do – without giving away too many trade secrets – is to have them close by
falkor: oh right
CIDB: along with maybe …y’know…. [laughing]
falkor: well they can use handcuffs if they’re making an arrest can’t they?
Go to the first of 17 pages on pcsos-national, that records the acceleration of PCSOs to 16,000 personnel on the streets of England and Wales.
CIDB: well yeah in theory there doesn’t need to be any law change for us either, because if you’re making a lawful arrest and there’s grounds to use them, my understanding is that it’s not a problem
falkor: I’ll tell you why, it’s because you are applying force, handcuffing somebody is an assault and arresting somebody is an assault, but the difference is it’s legal
CIDB: that’s right
falkor: so handcuffing someone would just be an extension of your actual application of force – as long as you’re making ….
CIDB: [interrupting] section 3 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 gives you reasonable force
falkor: that’s it, nice one Dave! Absolutely right, so as you say, you wouldn’t need to change the law, in fact North Wales PCSOs have just been issued handcuffs haven’t they
CIDB: Yes fantastic news
falkor: so did you see any of these doormen apply handcuffs in your time then?
CIDB: no
falkor: they never needed to?
CIDB: they tended to jump on the person and bearing in mind I worked nightclubs, so there were normally between 6 and 8 of us on and in my 5 years as a doorman, I saw people have all sorts of different things, but I never saw them actually use them
falkor: did you see any doormen actually getting arrested?
CIDB: yes
falkor: what did you think?
CIDB: at the time before I joined the police, I thought it was very unfair, but then when I joined the police, I realised that just an allegation of assault is enough to get somebody arrested. I can understand it now
falkor: I have unfortunately been in a situation where I have been virtually forced to make arrests of doormen before and I felt the same way as you and I thought “this is so unfair” and yet you’ve got 2 or 3 people standing there, complaining to police “what are you going to do about it? I’ve seen him do this” and then your hand is effectively forced
CIDB: Yeah I know absolutely, the street’s not the best place to sort it out CIDB: Before I joined the police I did think it was harsh
falkor: well it’s been a pleasure chatting to you Dave
CIDB: and you my man
falkor: thank you very much I’ll see you back on the site
CIDB: definitely cheers mate
falkor: cheers Dave bye
CIDB: bye
C I D B Sunday 1st April 2007 1700 - 1724
in 2008, saves were made of 17 pages from national-pcsos, comprising 2006 - 2007 material
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.
all in the day of a PCSO ...
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GlynB