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FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

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The French say the veil undermines basic standards required for living in a shared society

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falkor
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FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by falkor » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:32 am

FRANCE : Women can be taken to a police station if they refuse to remove their veils [ external image ] 12 April 2011 - BBC NEWS
French police say they have issued their first penalty to a woman for covering her face with an Islamic veil.

The woman was stopped in a shopping centre in Paris on Monday evening - the same day that a law banning face coverings in public came into force.

Police said they gave the 27-year-old woman a ticket that requires her to pay a 150-euro (£133) fine or register for citizenship classes within a month.

France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban the Muslim face veil.

Under the law, any woman - French or foreign - walking on the street or in a park in France and wearing a face-concealing veil such as the niqab or burka can be stopped by police and given a fine.

People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
  • Exceptions to ban on public face covering
  • Motorcycle helmets
  • Face-masks for health reasons
  • Face-covering for sporting or professional activities
  • Sunglasses, hats etc which do not completely hide the face
  • Masks used in "traditional activities", such as carnivals or religious processions
    Source: Radio France International
Two veiled women were briefly detained earlier on Monday - though police said it was not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest and refusing to move on, and they were later released.

Guidelines issued to police say they should not ask women to remove their veils in the street - if necessary they should escort them to a police station where they would be asked to uncover their faces for identification.

The French government says the face-covering veil undermines the basic standards required for living in a shared society and also relegates its wearers to an inferior status incompatible with French notions of equality.

The ban on face coverings - which does not explicitly mention Islamic veils, but exempts various other forms - has angered some Muslims and libertarians.
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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by mj12cz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:09 am

I don't know enough about this to really, but I was watching telly and there was an islamic scolor who said the full face veil has nothing to do with islam and was origionally a trible thing that has been adopted by some societies under the guise of islam just solely to keep their female population under male control.

Now my problem is we should always be allowed to express our selves as long as we are not causing harm or problems to others and in reality a veil does no harm to anyone if that person is willing to wear it under their own free will. The question is how many women wear it under their own free will?? I suspect some do and I suspect some don't.
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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by falkor » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:22 am

in reality a veil does no harm to anyone if that person is willing to wear it under their own free will
I disagree

this allows a person to walk around our streets preventing us from recognising them

they could go anywhere - including an airport, a hospital, a library, anywhere - by wearing this they stop us from recognising who they are

if I walk in to my local Sainsbury wearing my crash helmet because I have just got off my motorcycle I am immediately challenged by Staff (not security guards but supermarket manager) who demand that I take off my crash helmet there and then

because - they want to know who I am

quite right too

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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by mj12cz » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:31 am

I see your point, if we look at it from a security thing then it does have its issues.

Going back to the motorcycle thing... Do the staff demand a woman lift her veil when she goes shopping? I suspect not because its her religion.

No on the cenus we have just done a mate of mine put BIKER down as his religion, so when he goes into Asda and they demand he removes his lid, he will say no on religious grounds. I'm looking forward to hearing their reply.
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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Bert Moffat » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:33 am


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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by falkor » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:35 pm

yeah but I'd prefer not to

what a farce :sloop:

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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Arthur ASCII » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:30 am

I don't see how a motorcyclist being asked to remove their helmet in a shop or petrol station can be seriously compared with a female who chooses to wear a niqab or burka. I can't recall any cases of veiled women bilking, and I've personally never encountered a case where a veiled woman has robbed a shop (or anything else for that matter come to think of it).

IMHO this is a ridiculous law, and a ridiculous waste of politician's time, cynically designed to pander to an irrational fears of people who are "different".

Quite simply, it smacks of racism.

So much for "diversity" :slchee:


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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Arthur ASCII » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:35 pm

Did you post the link to prove the case for the ban Bert?

I'm not sure that a sinlge incident that appears to have occured in Canada gives sufficient weight to the pro-ban arguement :slww:

And the difference between the burka disguise and a hoodie and a scarf disguise (apart from the latter being a gazillion times more common) is?

Perhaps we should ban hoods, scarves and gloves as well? I can show you a shed load of CCTV where identities are hidden using those. No?... thought not.

It's a silly piece of legislation that is primarily designed to annoy certain sections of a minority community, not to address any major security issue.

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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Catweazle » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:31 pm

I know that covering up one's face causes a barrier- Is the person in the picture above a man or a woman? Is he/she smiling or frowning? And what would school kids make of a teacher who covers up their face? Barriers hardly make good communication. Unfortunately, some people still use the 'race card' in an attempt to justify their weak arguments. It's not 'racism' at all- but for those who insist on giving it a name, then why not call it what it is- 'barrierism'.

I give credit where it's due, and I think the French have got it right. If I go to a Muslim country, I will abide by their laws. If I want to visit a mosque in an Islamic country, I will remove my shoes- because it's their country and their culture. I would not see it any other way. When in Rome, do as the Romans do- it's called 'respect'.
I may not agree with what you have to say- but I'll defend to the death (well, almost) your right to say it.

May the Reasonable Force be with you !

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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Bert Moffat » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:04 pm

Arthur ASCII wrote:Did you post the link to prove the case for the ban Bert?
No, just to show how it can be abused. Just as in the Sharon Beshenivsky case, people know that the fear of offending the wearer outweighs the necessity for security and public safety.

I am torn between two schools of thought.

There is an argument for us respecting the right for freedom of choice for all and respecting each other and our different ways. I think we are better people for it and far more tolerant than radicalism of any type.

Then there is the other argument that catweazle mentions - when in Rome do, as the Romans do. Not convinced that this legislation does anything other than give the radicals more bile to throw back.

If pushed, I would come down on the side of freedom of choice though.

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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Ringer » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:48 pm

Arthur ASCII wrote:
I'm not sure that a sinlge incident that appears to have occured in Canada gives sufficient weight to the pro-ban arguement :slww:
Not quite an isolated incident in another country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds ... 678243.stm

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Re: FRANCE: first fine for woman in Islamic veil

Post by Arthur ASCII » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:06 pm

OMG! It's happening all over the place. What a fool I was not to see that the sooner Parliament outlaws this shameful disguise the better.

On the other hand, perhaps it would be a hysterical, knee-jerk reaction and total overkill.

As for "when in Rome..." Have you ever seen Brits abroad?...Say no more.

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