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I.D. CARDS

Police equipment and gear in here please!
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Marlon
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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by Marlon » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:10 pm

baronsmirnoff wrote: what's the point of paying for one?

What he asked ^.



I don't believe ID cards will do what the Government says they will do. Stop terrorism? That didn't work in Spain, where they have ID cards.

People can already get fake driving licence photocards, so who will bet more than £5 that somebody clever won't manage the same trick with the ID card in fairly short order?

It's a waste of money that we will all end up paying for.

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by baronsmirnoff » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:36 pm

http://www.ips.gov.uk/identity/faqs-top ... -carry.asp

Link to Home Office 'Identity & Passport Service' FAQ

Will it be compulsory to carry a card?

No. You will not have to carry a card, although you may find it simple and convenient to do so. The police have no new powers associated with the scheme and they will not be able to stop you and demand to see your card.
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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by Big Brother » Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:38 am

Although as the police already have powers to demand name and address the phrase "let me see your ID" will soon become common.
Big brother is watching you.

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by JEA » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:36 am

I hate the idea of them.

Just think, what are they actually going to help with? Crime? Terrorism? Preventing ID theft/fraud? Stopping people giving false details to a PCSO (bit of an expensive solution to a minor offence! :wink: )? HOW??!! Seriously, if anyone can help me out on this one, please do.
If the Police don't have powers to demand to see them or you don't HAVE to carry it what difference can they make?

Sure, you can "ask" to see it, or "find" it during a stop search. But the only ones who will carry it or willingly produce it will be the law abiding public with nothing to hide. And you won't have any powers to deal with the criminals/terrorists who don't produce it or carry it. Business as normal then...



If later, the government does introduce legislation to make it an offence not to carry one or produce one (...to an accredited person :slroll: ) then, again, what good will it do? What will be the procedure for dealing with those not carrying it?
You won't be certain of their ID, they may be unemployed or no fixed abode (or an actual terrorist!!) so a ticket/producer is out of the question. They'll have to be nicked. :slwo:
How many people will be nicked for forgetting their wallet?! It'll be the new shop lifting, an offence that no officer will want to go near.

The new biometrics will be hard to forge, but unless we all get pocket sized card readers all the forgers will have to do is copy the look of the card. Not hard.
The biometrics will be invaluable to ID thieves/fraudsters. It may be encrypted, but it won't take long for them to work out how to hack it. Especially when the rewards would be so great, biometric data will open new ways to commit fraud as more systems will rely on it.

The black market for lost/stolen cards will be immense. And as the data will be stored on the card, you can't cancel them like a credit card.

All this data will also have to be stored centrally in some government department [shudder] :slwo: :slwo:

=========================================================================================================

But my objection to them has nothing to do with the above. I dislike the idea that the government thinks I'm a criminal or terrorist and that I have to have a card to prove my innocence. (and pay for the privilege!) :slchee: :slchee: :slchee:

Millions of people, and some of my friends, have died in the past to protect our civil liberties, freedoms and way of life. This would be a huge slap in the face of the sacrifices they made. :slra: :slra: :slra:

For some reason the "civil liberties brigade" are viewed as left wing, in cahoots with the "human rights brigade". I don't know why this is, the administration that's done most harm to civil liberties has been a left wing government (new labour). Yet it's become fashionable to ridicule them?

The argument that "this is for the good of the country, if you disagree you're an unpatriotic pacifist or criminal" or "you must have something to hide" isn't a logical argument. It's bullying, intimidating and scaremongering.

Civil liberties used to be at the core of what it meant to be British.

We've fought for our own. We've fought for other country's.

I have lost friends to both terrorists and criminals. And I would happily accept the risk of attack to continue my way of life.
It's a weak leader that can't stand up and say "We will not be frightened into changing our way of life".

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

-- Thomas Jefferson --
Last edited by JEA on Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by unclve vanya » Thu Nov 27, 2008 5:46 pm

One of the anomolies that will be allowed is for people of 'No Fixed Abode'. If ID Cards become compulsory, then those of 'NFA' will legally be able to put their address as a 'Park Bench', a 'Tree' or some 'Shop Doorway'. So anyone with an ID Card will be legit, but if they don't want to be 'found' by the police or authorities, they will be legally entitled to put down as their contact address..... '3rd Cave on the Isle of Arran' or something just as daft.... and its all legal!!!

of course this is just daft.... but so.... Its a Neues Liebore policy...... :sljo: :slsp: ..are they daft?? :slbell: :slby:
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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by danielswindells » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:24 pm

I don't see what everybody is worried about

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by JEA » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:50 am

danielswindells wrote:I don't see what everybody is worried about
well, i've detailed the negatives that I see in the scheme above.

What are the positives that you see in it?

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by danielswindells » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:50 am

i cant see the point in one...but likewise, i cant see why people are against them other than if they have something to hide or of course scared of their info falling into wrong hands....which admittedly is a valid argument....but then if it isnt compulsory-dont get one

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by Marlon » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:35 am

danielswindells wrote:I don't see what everybody is worried about


What's the point of introducing them voluntarily, if they're not going to be made compulsory later?

What's the point in being forced (later) to pay for one, if they're going to be no more informative or secure than existing means of ID?

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by JEA » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:18 am

danielswindells wrote:i cant see the point in one...but likewise, i cant see why people are against them other than if they have something to hide or of course scared of their info falling into wrong hands....which admittedly is a valid argument....but then if it isnt compulsory-dont get one
If you can't see the point, and neither can I, then why does the government want them? It's an awful lot of money to spend on something that has no point...

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by tim419 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:48 am

Big Brother, police can only "demand" a person's name/address in limited circumstances, such as issuing a ticket or reporting for summons, owner/keeper enquiry with a driver or during the arrest process. We won't, if the Home Office site is correct, have any power to routinely demand to see a person'a ID card.

There is NO automatic power to get someone's details at other times, like Stop and Search or Account.

What's wrong with ID cards? The old "if you have nothing to hide" argument is just far too simple. Have a look here for more in-depth reasoning - http://www.no2id.net/

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by Taffy » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:07 am

I wouldnt have to carry my passport with me to travel through the EU at least.

And the daily mail wont need to worry about PC Herr Flick demanding "ze papers" - if the rules were a parralell with germany, where it is compulsory to carry, it would be up to the officer to decide what to do.

Man on high street at 5pm, respectable chap with bowler hat and umbrella etc, left it at home, no problem.

Bloke looking into car windows at 3am, forgot the id mate, name is John smith.... Bring him in!
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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by JEA » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:06 pm

Taffy wrote:I wouldnt have to carry my passport with me to travel through the EU at least.
No you wouldn't have to carry a passport, but you'd have to carry your ID card. How is that more convenient? Save an extra 20g in weight but pay £93 for it??!!
Taffy wrote:
Man on high street at 5pm, respectable chap with bowler hat and umbrella etc, left it at home, no problem.

Bloke looking into car windows at 3am, forgot the id mate, name is John smith.... Bring him in!
Really??!! Does how people are dressed influence how you exercise your current powers??!! Either they've committed an offence or they haven't. How their dress sense fits in with your prejudices should be irrelevant.

What happens if the bloke with a bowler hat then goes on to blow up a tube station? He didn't have an ID card when you stop checked him and all he had to do was say it's at home and you let him off. Shhhh! Don't tell the terrorists that that's all they have to say!

So again, what's the point! In your above example you haven't used the ID card to help catch a criminal, or used it at all in your decision making. You've used prejudice to let what could be a suicide bomber on his way, and you've used someone's suspicious behaviour as a guide to warrant further investigation (which could be dealt with under current legislation with a stop search for going equipped).

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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by baronsmirnoff » Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:17 pm

Marlon

When I asked
What's the point paying for one?
it was a rhetorical question
which I answered a tax on living in this country,

from 2011 compulsory to have but not to carry, at a cost with passport £93, without a passport £30, say by then 70,000,000 population tax of £2,100,000,000,
about the only time you need to show it is when going for a job,

I would have no objection to having one if you had to carry it, police could demand to see it when an offence had been committed, and the laptop with my details on is not left in a pup or on a train then sold to the Daily Mail by the person who finds it.
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Re: I.D. CARDS

Post by JEA » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:21 pm

baronsmirnoff wrote: police could demand to see it when an offence had been committed,
why would the police want to? It won't stop people giving false details. they could get a forged one or a stolen one.

I wasn't aware that giving false details was such a huge problem that it requires a multi billion pound solution and a subversion of the relationship between the state & the public.

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