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Leatherman

Police equipment and gear in here please!
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mj12cz
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Post by mj12cz » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:47 pm

abdi1234 wrote:It happened 3-4 years ago somewhere in north west London. We were told by a PC in the CAD room. There should of be some one on this site from that area with that service who knows about it. I think it could of been Kilburn/Wormwood scrubs area. Its about that time because I had just changed stations.
Oh it sounds like a ridiculous urban legend, You were told by... So to be fair its not something they you personally know about.
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Post by Big-Si » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:53 pm

[ external image ]

OK then Abdiocchio
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Post by Trip » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:39 am

I find that very hard to believe.

Sounds like over the years the story has been twisted, chinese wispers style.

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Leatherman

Post by BigBoots » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:25 am

Hiya,

Does anyone here carry a leatherman on duty as a PCSO? I have one but have never put it on my belt due to the locking blade (offensive weapon), and I only got thinking the other day of how handy it would be to have such an item ready to use should the need arise. I see many PC's with Leathermans on their duty belts, but I was under the impression PC's can carry them lawfully?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks :)

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Re: Leatherman

Post by Big Brother » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:01 am

I've got a swiss army knife.

A locking knife is not an offensive weapon if the person carrying it is using it for work and can prove they are. Think carpet fitters with stanley knives (locking) or chefs with kitchen knives (longer than 3 inches). A PC is no more exempt from the law than anyone else, if they can't give a good reason for having it then they are breaking the law.

The difference between a swiss army knife and the above is, the onus of proof is on the person who stops you.
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Re: Leatherman

Post by falkor » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:58 am

[ external image ]

What is an offensive weapon?

Any article made or adapted for causing injury, or intended to cause injury

Any object carried for the intention of causing harm or injury to another

An offensive weapon can include many objects for example, baseball bats, any bladed or sharply pointed object, such as a screwdriver, broken bottles, knives, pen-knives and guns etc.

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Re: Leatherman

Post by b3njy » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:54 pm

Not read the whole thread, but its not just the blade that is the problem, other implements on the tool constitute a sharply pointed or bladed atricle which is a separate offence. There is an argument for front line police officers and pcso's to carry a leatherman, but the upshot is, as already said, it is illegal.

It isn't kit issued to you, and although useful it is not necessary in order to carry out your duties, so good luck justifying posession of one in a public place without reasonable excuse.

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Re: Leatherman

Post by Big-Si » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:06 pm

Carrying Knives in Public

The CJA 1988 mainly relates to carrying knives in public places, Section 139 being the most important.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]

The phrase "good reason" is intended to allow for "common sense" possession of knives, so that it is legal to carry a knife if there is a bona fide reason to do so. Examples of bona fide reasons which have been accepted include: a knife required for ones trade (e.g. a chefs knife), as part of a national costume (e.g. a sgian dubh), or for religious reasons (e.g. a Sikh Kirpan).

In this case, public place is meant as anywhere accessible to the public, so for example a private campsite, which members of the public must book to use, is a public place. Also, knives should only be carried to and from and used at the location where they are needed. For example, leaving a knife in a car for use when you go fishing would be illegal. It should be taken back into the house each time you use the car (other than to go fishing). [1]

The special exception which exists in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139) for folding knives (pocket knives) is another "common sense" measure accepting that some small knives are carried for general utility however even a folding pocket knife of less than 3" (76mm) may still be considered an offensive weapon if carried or used for that purpose. It was a long held common belief that a folding knife must be non-locking for this provision to apply.

A Crown Court case (Harris v DPP), ruled (case law). A lock knife for all legal purposes, is the same as a fixed blade knife. A folding pocket knife must be readily foldable at all times. If it has a mechanism that prevents folding, it's a lock knife (or for legal purposes, a fixed blade) The Court of Appeal (REGINA - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN 1998) upheld the Harris ruling stating that "folding was held to mean non-locking". No leave to appeal was granted.


Age Restriction

British law also covers age restriction on the sale of knives in the Criminal Justice Act 1998:

"It is an offence for any person to sell to a person under the age of 18 any knife, knife blade, razor blade, axe or any other article which has a blade or is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for causing injury to the person." [CJA 1988 section 141A]

British courts have in the past taken the marketing of a particular brand of knife into account when considering whether an otherwise legal folding knife was carried as an offensive weapon. A knife which is marketed as "tactical", "military", "special ops", etc could therefore carry an extra liability. The Knives Act 1997 now restricts the marketing of knives as offensive weapons and thus it is much more unlikely that such marketing could be used as evidence against a defendant.

In practice, this law makes it highly unlikely that most shops would sell a knife to someone younger than 18.
Illegal Knives

In the UK, the main knife legislation is found in the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988 however certain types of knife are banned under the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act (ROWA) 1959, the relevant section of the latter being Section 1.

"It is an offence for a person to manufacture, sell, hire or offer for sale or hire or expose or have in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lend or give to any person:

* A) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes know as a "flick knife" or "flick gun"; or

* B) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a "gravity knife". "

[ROWA 1959 S 1(1)]

Section 1(2) also makes it illegal to import knives of this type, as a result it is (almost) impossible to obtain possession of such a knife without either committing or abetting an offence. Note that the above legislation does not refer to possession of such knives other than possession for the purpose of sale or hire, it is therefore not illegal per se to merely possess such a knife.

This law is aimed primarily at knives designed with features specific to fighting/assault rather than use as a tool.
Burden of Proof

Although English law insists that it is the responsibility of the prosecution to provide evidence proving a crime has been committed an individual must provide evidence to prove that they had a bona fide reason for carrying a knife (if this is the case). Whilst this may appear to be a reversal of the usual burden of proof, technically the prosecution has already proven the case (prima facie) by establishing that a knife was being carried in a public place
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Re: Leatherman

Post by mj12cz » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:54 pm

Good post big si...

This is the answer... "without lawful authority or good reason"

I have, and carry a leatherman every day and i have good reason to.
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Re: Leatherman

Post by ruben » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:57 am

IMO, every police officer/CSO has lawful authority to carry a leatherman, whether it has a locking blade or not. it is an extremely useful tool to assist in many jobs we come across and personally i feel it should be issued by forces.
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Re: Leatherman

Post by Big Brother » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:19 am

ruben wrote:IMO, every police officer/CSO has lawful authority to carry a leatherman, whether it has a locking blade or not. it is an extremely useful tool to assist in many jobs we come across and personally i feel it should be issued by forces.


Agreed. When I was on the beat or in a car I carried a leatherman as there was always a good chance I'd get called to an RTC where it would be needed for seat belt cutting or first aid. Since changing roles I've put it away and just carry a swiss army knife instead. More than good enough for minor tasks and first aid e.t.c. plus it has a bottle opener on it.
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Re: Leatherman

Post by overthinker1977 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:45 pm

yeah but its not necessarily usefull to have a locking blade though. Init.
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Re: Leatherman

Post by GMPCSO » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:26 pm

In 3 years I have never had a need for a knife whilst on duty (but thats just me).....

I can see peoples views of it being ok as its part of "kit" I need for my duties however.... If I was pulled in and had to explain what I needed it for I couldnt give good reason. A carpet fitter (for example of a lock knife) would need a stanley as part of his job. He would have to show that his purpose for carrying it was to use it say... at the destination he was travelling to.

If he had all his work gear on and had a stanley knife on him whilst he was on his lunch in a pub, he could still be arrested for having it with him because although he may use it as part of his job, he didnt need it at the time or was taking it between jobs. (If say he had his van or another place he could have stored it whilst in the pub), and it would be for him to prove he needed it at the time (locking knife), not the officer.

This could quite easily apply to a PCSO. Granted its a useful tool to cut a seatbelt at an RTC if needed, but there are tools designed for things like that, that have safety features to prevent injury.

http://www.safelincs.co.uk/ResQMe-Emerg ... lt-Cutter/

This baby will cut a seatbelt and smash the window......

What im basically getting at is that although at some point the use of a knife may be useful to me, I couldnt warrant it as a tool used as part of my daily duties and with the burdan of proof on me to show I do need it, i think id be stuck when it came to being in court!!!!

CS, Baton is a personal safety tool for protection and even though hardly ever used in some cases, can be warranted on personal safety. A knife cant be warranted for personal protection purposes.

I think that anybody who wants to carry a knife should make sure its a folding pocket knife. But the other problem is that it still isnt part of police "kit" and hasnt been issued. Could it result in internal disciplinary for carrying it? Im not sure but its something to think about.....

Can anybody on here say they use a knife they carry on a "job to job" or even "day to day" basis?????

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Re: Leatherman

Post by Big-Si » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:44 pm

Actually keeping it in the van is not lawful, it must be returned to the home storage inbetween jobs in the eyes of the law however common sense is applied.


The Gerber suspension I carry has 2 locking blades, the reason I bought it was it was the cheapest gerber available I'm not paying daft money for a Leatherman which does the same job.

I can justify carrying it for my job and have used it or loaned it to members of the public several times now, I have a resqme as well
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Re: Leatherman

Post by GMPCSO » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:55 pm

I was going along the lines of common sense in regards to the van :slcool: .... Custody would be packed with tradesmen otherwise lol.....

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