Specials to replace PCSO'S

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Gualsa
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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by Gualsa » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:47 pm

I agree with Steve999. Specials mixed with response would work well. Lots of jobs require double crewed units just to watch each others backs. Its irelevant that one of them has less knowledge of the law and less experience. Its safety in numbers and a lot of jobs can be dealt with by giving WOA which anyone can do.

With regards to the Public order van being called ASB van " you say tomato, I say...tomato". Same thing really, what ASB is so bad it needs a van load of officers?

I know specials who have been doing the job for years but its not a career, its a hobby. Quite a few of them earn too much in their "real job" to be able to afford going for the career.

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by the dark lord » Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:59 pm

steve999 wrote:A double crewed car produces more work than a single crewed patrol so by crewing up vehicles with Specials makes sense. The Special does not need to be supervised but due to the amount of time they spend at work they need help in remembering what is required.

We don't crew ASB vans with PCSOs as they should be out on foot, in their area, to prevent crime. If a van is required PCs will attend and deal with it and more or less someone will be arrested and that sends a message out to their friends.

What you are saying is that PCSOs are tagging onto the powers of the Specials and this is like having 7 Specials in a van with full powers but in reality 6 PCSOs & 1 Special (cheap labour) . Our CC will not give PCSOs the ability to drive public order vans and we don't have enough Specials to go into one van, so it is a non starter.
I'll agree with pretty much all of that, including PCSOs should be out on foot, being seen at peak times for ASB, as that is what the reassurance bit is all about, making people feel safer and happier seeing a representative of the Police Force, and that reassurance can be delivered without the PCSO necessarily actually doing anything other than walking about. And that's 90% of the role. (course that wont work for the rural places with masses of acreage to cover, but where i work would work pretty well.

The van or the car with a couple of PCs can then be called in by PCSOs should they be needed, i.e. should they come across a large group or something that needs a PC. Specials should be part of this PC mobile using their powers. In the event that PCSOs are teamed up with PCs usually the PCSOs end up doing diddly, looking and feeling useless/marginalised, i know i do... As the public want to talk to the Police Officer, the Police Officer wants to talk with the offenders, at most we would fill in the odd stop account if a large group was encountered.

How many times have you, as a PCSO been an incident/an address/partner meeting with a NPU PC and either they take over, or the MOP deals with the PC and you are left behind twiddling thumbs? Happens all the time, one of the reasons why i prefer going out on a bicycle, you can't be picked up when the NPU officer wants some company and you can go see people and they will talk to me, who ultimately am the one who has the time to sit listen and get to the bottom. I try not to have the Police Officer, I'm right, You listen to what i say, i know best, do this, do that attitude.

The only thing i would dispute is the first paragraph, with stuff like a theft from a car, or a burglary, where one statement is required would be better served by a single officer, rather than one doing the writing and one twiddling thumbs. Course ongoing issues need two officers, so i think there is a mix and a balance to be met.

But yes, van, or team deployment of PCSOs is NOT how they should be deployed. Nor should they be "company" for the lonely NPU PC.

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by Marlon » Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:52 pm

PCSOTristan wrote:
steve999 wrote:Ours do not get into vans, they double up with a PC in a car and go to incidents. Some do statements under the supervision of the PC or carry out an arrest, interview or file.
What are you talking about? How can having a Special working on response who has to be supervised by a PC help him get more done? It seems to be a bit of a false economy and doesn't really get anything acheived other than taking a process which already takes quite along time, even longer due to the inexperience of a Special.


OTOH, if you have a Special Constable with a response PC, they can attend jobs and speak to a number of people twice as fast as single PC could. You can also send one car to an incident requiring a double crew, instead of sending two single-crewed cars - which makes a timely difference in a rural force area IMO.

If the Special is inexperienced, then this sort of thing sees them gaining experience in a way they perhaps might not otherwise.

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by PCSOTristan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:09 pm

steve999 wrote:A double crewed car produces more work than a single crewed patrol so by crewing up vehicles with Specials makes sense. The Special does not need to be supervised but due to the amount of time they spend at work they need help in remembering what is required.

We don't crew ASB vans with PCSOs as they should be out on foot, in their area, to prevent crime. If a van is required PCs will attend and deal with it and more or less someone will be arrested and that sends a message out to their friends.

What you are saying is that PCSOs are tagging onto the powers of the Specials and this is like having 7 Specials in a van with full powers but in reality 6 PCSOs & 1 Special (cheap labour) . Our CC will not give PCSOs the ability to drive public order vans and we don't have enough Specials to go into one van, so it is a non starter.
Oh I thought PCSO's were here to deal with ASB my Mistake!

We crew an ASB van with Specails and PCSO's hell if the N/PC is on he gets in as well, now I MUST POINT OUT FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T READ THAT ITS AN ASB VAN for ANTI SOCIAL INCIDENT PATROL! NOT IN ANYWAY TO BE CONFUSED WITH PUBLIC ORDER PATROL WHICH INVOLVES LOTS OF FIGHTING! Specials are the perfect patrolling group for this with PCSO's, it allows for a much more robust enforcement WHEN REQUIRED. (hopefully cleared up the point there? Answers on a post card!)

Somewhere along the line SPECIAL's role got blurred, Specials used to be the local on foot police officer who supported the community policng team, then things changed, SPECIAL numbers dropped, this started long before PCSO's came in, but the trend continued, shock horror what accured? Well the way specials were deployed changed, they became the public order and crime disorder patrol, alot of specials started thinking "why do I do this all the time? Why don't I get to do other stuff? I am bored!" low and behold specials started become PCSO's not because they wanted to give up, but because they want to do the community side of policing, like they used to do, before the police became reactive!

This is why Special turn over is so high, this is why the level of some specials training and abilty doesn't stretch much further on then the abilty to arrest for sec 5 POA or assault, Specials don't join to fight people every friday and saturday, they join to do the grass routes of policing, this is why when community events are going I get huge levels for response from the Specials, its what they joined to do, 95% of the specials like working with the PCSO's seeing the community side of the job, 90% of Specials join to police their neighbourhood, not go out and get smacked up in the town centre.

If shift is light on resources, SGT's and Inspectors should'nt be thinking ahh SPECIALS, they should be wonder and possibly be asking the question 1) of why the shift skipper has let their resources get to the level that we will be struggling so, 2) why has the local resource management unit not flagged it? 3) why are the command team level not putting actions in place to stop the staff incidents from accuring.

Special deployment to wards and NPT policing should take presedence over response policing, NPT structure has Specials working along side PCSO's and NBM/NBO, not assisting badley manged response shifts!

If shift planning by the SGT is to put a response car out with a single officer in, the issue is planning not man power and weak management!

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by steve999 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:19 pm

PCSOTristan

I think you are away with the fairies, come back to the land of the living.

I don't know where you are getting your figures from but our Specials all state that they would rather be on a response group than the Neighbourhood group (and that is where they are). Never seen a van of PCSO on district and I would believe SMT would go mad if it happened.
it allows for a much more robust enforcement
As I said before you are tagging onto the back of their powers, I disagree.

l
low and behold specials started become PCSO's not because they wanted to give up, but because they want to do the community side of policing, like they used to do, before the police became reactive!
Don't know any who have become PCSO but many are PCs now working on shift.
This is why the level of some specials training and abilty doesn't stretch much further on then the abilty to arrest for sec 5 POA or assault, Specials don't join to fight people every friday and saturday, they join to do the grass routes of policing, this is why when community events are going I get huge levels for response from the Specials, its what they joined to do, 95% of the specials like working with the PCSO's seeing the community side of the job, 90% of Specials join to police their neighbourhood, not go out and get smacked up in the town centre.
Have you just made up these figures or what. I never said that they go out and get smacked in town. I said they double up in a car with a PC and attend jobs out in the estates (grass routes as you call it) and deal with all the different types of jobs,ie sudden deaths, OPL, assaults, damages, missing kids etc.
If shift is light on resources, SGT's and Inspectors should'nt be thinking ahh SPECIALS, they should be wonder and possibly be asking the question 1) of why the shift skipper has let their resources get to the level that we will be struggling so, 2) why has the local resource management unit not flagged it? 3) why are the command team level not putting actions in place to stop the staff incidents from accuring.
There are many reasons for numbers ie court cases, illness, child care reasons, part time working etc and when officers retire they are not being replaced. SMT know all about it and are placing new Specials on response groups. The days of Neighbourhood teams getting them are over and you will see a big difference over the coming years.
Special deployment to wards and NPT policing should take presedence over response policing, NPT structure has Specials working along side PCSO's and NBM/NBO, not assisting badley manged response shifts!

If shift planning by the SGT is to put a response car out with a single officer in, the issue is planning not man power and weak management!
[/quote]

Those days are over, Specials are on shifts where they are required. All cars except one are all single crewed until 9pm, district policy.

Looks like police officers on Neighbourhood teams could be back on shift soon to make up the numbers. Neighbourhood teams could be left with PCSOs over the next couple of years and then run them down after that, to save money.

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by steve999 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:19 pm

duplicate

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by PCSOTristan » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:16 pm

5 years of working with them?

3 of my team yes 3 are ex specials, the 4th applied to be a special but decided PCSO.

I put a tender out for Special Officers to assist with community events, 40 Specials, 34 yes replies for 16 spaces.

Your force has a strange policy if it is to single crew response until 9pm, I am also a little confused as to how Specials can assist in performing duties prior to this if it is the case that they are to be single crewed, but that is neither here nor there.

I fail to see how having a van with specials and pcso's in, automatically means PCSO's begin leaching powers off the specials, we both have powers to deal with ASB, and when one set becomes exhasted, it's little different to calling up over the air for a car. But what it does do is stop response group from having to come away from response, to assist NPT with their jobs aswell.

We love Specials and we work together because we are better, we don't have non of these strange polices about single crew response cars, how stupid can you get?

SPECIALS BELONG ON NPT not response groups, Specials are not there to fill in emergency staffing issues or do Police jobs they are not trained for.

SMT must stand for STUPID MANAGMENT TEAMS, NPT PC and SGT's are not going anywhere MATE! Grass root policing is here to STAY!

I might think that your specials may well say yeah I want to be on Response! But thats the great thing about looking from the otherside of the pond, they will soon change there mind when they are up close and personal, I also don't think the best use of Special resources is to have them sit around twiddling thumbs with a response group who have more paper work then the government, whislt they could be out be more productive being a visible presence with in the community dealing with incidents. SPECIALS belong on NPT where they can do more, there is no point in having extra man power if its not seen, not used to its potential which should not be stuck in a car, doing ride along, this is not the USA.

I am sorry but its up to the management of the Police to ensure that they have staff on the ground to do the job, you don't get paid the big money to come in and go "I got no Staff" it's up to the people in charge to ensure resources are allocated at the right time and the right place. Back bone of that is shift, that starts with strong supervision and planning! Not praying for it to start raining Specials!

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Re: Specials to replace PCSO'S

Post by steve999 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:48 am

I think we agree to disagree.

I said " all cars except one are all single crewed until 9pm, district policy". Didn't say response car is single crewed, means two different things.

I will come back to you in 2 years to see whether the same number of PCs are still on the Neighbourhood groups. We have halved the numbers of PCs on these teams over the last 3 years and SMT are looking to reduce further with removing some Insp, Sgts and PCs. There is also talk that Neighbourhood teams will lose all Insp. and Sgts will run the teams, to save money.

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