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Penalty notice for disorder

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Gualsa
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Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Gualsa » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:26 pm

I have a ticket book for the above (£50). There are many offences covered in it but I can only give out a ticket for littering. Can any PCSOs give out others?
I cant remember if there are any other optional powers that can be granted under that heading?

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Big Brother » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:34 pm

Unless you're a cop you can't give a PND for littering. The last government in their almighty wisdom decided that because we can issue council FPNS for littering they wouldn't give us the police power.

I can issue £80 and £50 PNDs for S.5, drunk and disorderly, drinking in a designated area, fireworks, purchasing alcohol by under 18's, malicious communications, wasting police time, misuse of the 999 system, railway tresspass and throwing stones on a railway.

They come in handy, although I've not issued one for a while.
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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Felony » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:00 am

Big Brother wrote:I can issue £80 and £50 PNDs for S.5, drunk and disorderly, drinking in a designated area, fireworks, purchasing alcohol by under 18's, malicious communications, wasting police time, misuse of the 999 system, railway tresspass and throwing stones on a railway.
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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Gualsa » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:03 pm

Well, I have been given a ticket book for £50 penalty notice for disorder specifically to issue tickets for littering so I dont know what you mean Big Brother?

Its interesting you can give the tickets out for all those offences you mention. We have the power to issue tickets for other offences than littering but were never issued the ticket books or indeed given any training in the subject.

Can I ask how often you issue any tickets?

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by the dark lord » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:50 pm

Gualsa wrote:Well, I have been given a ticket book for £50 penalty notice for disorder specifically to issue tickets for littering so I dont know what you mean Big Brother?

Its interesting you can give the tickets out for all those offences you mention. We have the power to issue tickets for other offences than littering but were never issued the ticket books or indeed given any training in the subject.

Can I ask how often you issue any tickets?

I have to say i was specifically trained for ticketing littering during my initial training, in so much as all the examples we did were for litter.

Out of the £50 book i can also do trespass on a railway, graffiti etc.

From the £80 book we can do the usual Pubic order, and fireworks stuff

Actually it says on our card

"Power to Issue Penalty Notices for Disorder"

Sale / supply alc to a person under 18
Purchase of alc for person under 18
Delivery of alc to a person under 18 or knowingly permit such
Destroy or damage property (under £500)
Breach of fireworks curfew (whatever one of them is)
Posses a cat 4 firework
Possession of an adult firework by a person under 18
Wasting police time / giving a false report
Using electronic comms network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience and needless anxiety
Knowingly give fals alarm to a person acting on behalf of a fire and rescue authority.
Causing HAD
Throwing fireworks
D&D (but the you cant issue to a drunk so null and void really)
Consumption of alc by a person under 18 or permitting such
Buying or Attemp Buy alc for person under 18
Selling alc to a person who is drunk
Railway Tresspass
Throwing Stones at a train
Drunk in the highway
Drinking a designated public place (but we are told only a constable can do this under the orders placed locally)


Powers to issue FPN
Dog Fouling
Cycle on a footpath
Graffiti and Fly Posting
For Littering
For Truancy

I presume the above are council tickets which I am NOT authorised to issue.

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by oli » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:01 pm

The only littering ticket power is using local council tickets (which is ridiculous because i would probadly have to carry around 3 different ticket books on me) but our ticket for littering in my local area is £80 so higher than the police PND

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Big Brother » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:42 pm

Gualsa wrote:Well, I have been given a ticket book for £50 penalty notice for disorder specifically to issue tickets for littering so I dont know what you mean Big Brother?

Its interesting you can give the tickets out for all those offences you mention. We have the power to issue tickets for other offences than littering but were never issued the ticket books or indeed given any training in the subject.

Can I ask how often you issue any tickets?

Hi, in the legislation it specifically excludes PCSOs from being able to issue a PND for littering, stating the fact that we can issue an FPN for the same offence. An FPN is a completely different ticket, if you've been given them by the local authority then fine, but nobody in my force has.

To sum it up, if you're a PCSO you're not allowed by law to issue a penalty notice for disorder (£50 police) for littering. It isn't something your chief can designate you with.

I don't do PNDS very often, although I've done a fair few I normally keep them in reserve for people I catch doing something more than once. The ones I have issued have either been for section 5 or misuse of communications.
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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by PCSO Mickyboy » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:58 pm

the dark lord wrote:
Gualsa wrote:Well, I have been given a ticket book for £50 penalty notice for disorder specifically to issue tickets for littering so I dont know what you mean Big Brother?

Its interesting you can give the tickets out for all those offences you mention. We have the power to issue tickets for other offences than littering but were never issued the ticket books or indeed given any training in the subject.

Can I ask how often you issue any tickets?

I have to say i was specifically trained for ticketing littering during my initial training, in so much as all the examples we did were for litter.

Out of the £50 book i can also do trespass on a railway, graffiti etc.

From the £80 book we can do the usual Pubic order, and fireworks stuff

Actually it says on our card

"Power to Issue Penalty Notices for Disorder"

Sale / supply alc to a person under 18
Purchase of alc for person under 18
Delivery of alc to a person under 18 or knowingly permit such
Destroy or damage property (under £500)
Breach of fireworks curfew (whatever one of them is)
Posses a cat 4 firework
Possession of an adult firework by a person under 18
Wasting police time / giving a false report
Using electronic comms network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience and needless anxiety
Knowingly give fals alarm to a person acting on behalf of a fire and rescue authority.
Causing HAD
Throwing fireworks
D&D (but the you cant issue to a drunk so null and void really)
Consumption of alc by a person under 18 or permitting such
Buying or Attemp Buy alc for person under 18
Selling alc to a person who is drunk
Railway Tresspass
Throwing Stones at a train
Drunk in the highway
Drinking a designated public place (but we are told only a constable can do this under the orders placed locally)


Powers to issue FPN
Dog Fouling
Cycle on a footpath
Graffiti and Fly Posting
For Littering
For Truancy

I presume the above are council tickets which I am NOT authorised to issue.

same powers as me
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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by arthurgray50@blu » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:51 pm

I don't like to brag, but since l passed out as a PCSO, I have handed out about 30 s5 PNDs, and five Sc 12, the best ones l like are the urinating ones.

I have been in the job just under two years.

To me, if you have the powers to issue, you do it. :slcool:

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Big Brother » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:39 pm

arthurgray50@blu wrote:I don't like to brag, but since l passed out as a PCSO, I have handed out about 30 s5 PNDs, and five Sc 12, the best ones l like are the urinating ones.

I have been in the job just under two years.

To me, if you have the powers to issue, you do it. :slcool:


Good for you. I prefer giving people a warning first unless they're blatant (ie urinating in front of people). I've worked in my community a long time, I like to think if I give a warning they'll heed it (and 9/10 they do) and for those that don't? Word has sufficiently got around that if you don't heed one of my warnings you get prosecuted.
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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Gualsa » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:55 pm

It seems my force is using the wrong ticket books then. A few of us were trained by the council and given £80 FPN to issue for littering which probably just confirms that the rest of us are stuck with wrong ticket books.
I have never issued one anyway and the ticket book is in my tray. However, I will go back to work and investigate to get to the bottom of it. :slna:

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by BigBoots » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:26 am

oli wrote:The only littering ticket power is using local council tickets (which is ridiculous because i would probadly have to carry around 3 different ticket books on me) but our ticket for littering in my local area is £80 so higher than the police PND
We have the Council Tickets for Littering, and also the FPN for Cycling On A Footpath :slsm:

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Big Brother » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:40 am

Gualsa wrote:It seems my force is using the wrong ticket books then. A few of us were trained by the council and given £80 FPN to issue for littering which probably just confirms that the rest of us are stuck with wrong ticket books.
I have never issued one anyway and the ticket book is in my tray. However, I will go back to work and investigate to get to the bottom of it. :slna:

If the council gave you the book then it is the correct ticket for littering.
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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by Gualsa » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:49 pm

I have checked my ticket book at work. It was issued by my force (NOT the council) and inside the cover it states:

POLICE OFFICERs
£50 Penalty Notices for Disorder Offences


Trespassing on a railway
Throwing Stones matter thing at a train
Drunk in the highway
Consume Alcohol in designated public place
Depositing and leaving litter
Consumption of alcohol by person under 18 on relevant premises
Allowing consumption of alcohol by person under 18 on relevant premises
Buying or attempting to buy alcohol by a person under 18

PCSO
£50 Penalty Notices for Disorder Offences


Trespassing on a railway
Throwing Stones matter thing at a train
Consume Alcohol in designated public place
Depositing and leaving litter
Consumption of alcohol by person under 18 on relevant premises
Allowing consumption of alcohol by person under 18 on relevant premises
Buying or attempting to buy alcohol by a person under 18

I dont suppose you will argue that all these ticket books have been wrongly printed and issued?

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Re: Penalty notice for disorder

Post by oli » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:20 am

I have had a look into the legistlation and if you have the following designation from your cheif constable (not a standard power)
.

Part 1 Police reform act: Community Support Officers
Powers to issue fixed penalty notices E+W

1(1)Where a designation applies this paragraph to any person, that person shall have the powers specified in sub-paragraph (2) in relation to any individual who he has reason to believe has committed a relevant fixed penalty offence at a place within the relevant police area.

(2)Those powers are the following powers so far as exercisable in respect of a relevant fixed penalty offence—

(a)the powers of a constable in uniform and of an authorised constable to give a penalty notice under Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (c. 16) (fixed penalty notices in respect of offences of disorder);

Then

You have the following PND powers:

Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001

1 Offences leading to penalties on the spot E+W

(1)For the purposes of this Chapter “penalty offence” means an offence committed under any of the provisions mentioned in the first column of the following Table and described, in general terms, in the second column:
Offence creating provision Description of offence
Section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872 (c.94) Being drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises
Section 80 of the Explosives Act 1875 (c.17) Throwing fireworks in a thoroughfare
F1. . . . . .
Section 55 of the British Transport Commission Act 1949 (c.xxix) Trespassing on a railway
Section 56 of the British Transport Commission Act 1949 (c.xxix) Throwing stones etc. at trains or other things on railways
[F2Section 169A of the Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26) Sale of alcohol to a person under 18]
[F3Section 169C(1)of the Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26) Buying or attempting to buy alcohol by a person under 18]
Section [F4 169C(2) F5. . . ] of the Licensing Act 1964 (c.26) Buying or attempting to buy alcohol for F6. . . a person under 18
[F7Section 169E of the Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26) Consumption of alcohol by a person under 18 or allowing such consumption]
[F8Section 169F of the Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26) Delivery of alcohol to a person under 18 or allowing such delivery]
[F9Section 172(3) of the Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26) Selling alcohol to a drunken person]
Section 91 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 (c.80) Disorderly behaviour while drunk in a public place
Section 5(2) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 (c.58) Wasting police time or giving false report
[F10Section 1 of the Theft Act 1968 (c. 60) Theft]
[F11Section 1(1) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971 (c. 48) Destroying or damaging property]
[F12Section 43(1)(b) of the Telecommunications Act 1984 (c.12)] [F12Using public telecommunications system for sending message known to be false in order to cause annoyance]
[F13Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 (c.64) Behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress]
[F14Section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (c. 43) Depositing and leaving litter]
Section 12 of this Act Consumption of alcohol in designated public place
[F15Section 127(2) of the Communications Act 2003 Using public electronic communications network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety]
[F16Section 11 of the Fireworks Act 2003 (c. 22) Contravention of a prohibition or failure to comply with a requirement imposed by or under fireworks regulations or making false statements]
[F17Section 49 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 (c. 21) Knowingly giving a false alarm of fire]
[F18Section 149(4) of the Licensing Act 2003 Buying or attempting to buy alcohol for consumption on licensed premises, etc. by child]

The power to PND power for litter was added under The Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (Amendment) and Police Reform Act 2002 (Modification) Order 2004

The reason why some cheif cons dont give the power for litter PND to everyone is because they would have to give the power to give the rest of the above at the same time!

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